We have seen quite a lot of debate on fundamentals and fundamentalism, sparked off by ill-informed attacks on the Amahoro Gathering last month in the blog Discerning the world.
Now I don't know whether it is fair to characterise the authors of the Discerning the world blog as "fundamentalists". They say very little about what they believe. They say a great deal about what they are against, but very little about what they are for, and that makes it very difficult to have any kind of dialogue. They also make ridiculous lying accusations (did anyone at the Amahoro Gathering hear a single thing about "Maitreya"?). If you want to have dialogue, you need to deal with things that people actually say, and not hundreds of entirely unrelated things that are unjustly and untruthfully attributed to them.
But if that kind of behaviour is bizarre, then let us also try to avoid engaging in it ourselves. The authors of that blog are clearly trying to turn the term "Emerging Church" into a symbol of all that is evil, without being hindered by any inconvenient obstacles such as truth. This has been done with other terms throughout history. Just think of the ideas conjured up in the minds of some people by words like "Inquisition". For many is is the very symbol of evil, yet how many people who utter it in order to create an impression of evil in the minds of their hearers have any idea of what the Inquisition really was?
The problem is that some here have been doing precisely the same thing with the word "Fundamentalist".
I tried to point out the core of what Fundamwentalists believe, and all sorts of people have nevertheless said that what is wrong with Fundamentalists is the way they behave, and are thus trying to create the impression that this kind of behaviour is characteristic of "Fundamentalism", and this is precisely what is wrong with the behaviour of the people at Discerning the World.
Repeat after me: An idea is not necessarily responsible for the behaviour of the people who believe in it.
It is easy to be tempted into making lying accusations. People have also made such accusations against Christianity itself. They have said that religion generally, and Christianity in particular, has been responsible for all that is evil and violent in the world. Without doubt, Christians have sometimes behaved very badly over the centuries, and some Christians have been moved to say sorry for that behaviour. There was even a web site for that, with a little logo saying "Sorry" that you could stick on your blog.
But confessing other people's sins is a relatively undemanding activity, especially when those sins were committed by people whose culture and environment was very different from ours, such as those who were involved in things like the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Burning Times. Rather than confessing their sins, let us seek to confess and forsake our own. Past generations of Christians may have attacked "Saracens", "heretics", and "witches" unfairly, but there is no point in apologising for that if we are going to behave in a similar way towards "fundamentalists" and other groups that we love to hate.
Repeat once again: An idea is not necessarily responsible for the behaviour of the people who believe in it.
In another post I pointed out the chief characteristics of Fundamentalism, the idea that there were certain beliefs that were not negotiable, that were fundamental. The five points listed were dogmas that had been under attack by liberal Protestantism, which is why the Fundamentalists gave them such prominence.
I don't agree with them all, and so I'm not a Fundamentalist. I can agree with some of them, but not the substitutionary atonement as Fundamentalists understand it, and I have my doubts about the "verbal inerrancy" thing.
But we've also seen a new fundamentalism right here. Maybe not Fundamentalism with a capital f, but fundamentalism with a small f, in the Jesus Manifesto. That document advocates a return to what the authors see as the fundamentals, which are the primacy and supremacy of Christ. They see that as non-negotiable.
Like the original Fundamentalists, they are seeking to protect these things against those they see as attacking them. And they list the things they see as rivalling their "fundamentals": “justice,” “the kingdom of God,” “values,” and “leadership principles.”
I don't know Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola, so I don't judge the value of the Jesus Manifesto by their behaviour, just as I try not to judge the Fundamentals of the old Fundamentalists by the behaviour of people like the authors of Discerning the world (especially since I don't even know if they are actually Fundamentalists at all).
If one is going to evaluate such things one must ask at least two questions:
1. Are they true?
2. Are they fundamental?
I have my doubts about the Jesus Manifesto, just as I have my doubts about the Fundamentals. What about the Trinity?
As an Orthodox Christian, I also have some "fundamentals". They are expressed in two hymns that we sing every Sunday. One is after communion:
We have seen the true light
We have received the heavenly Spirit
We have found the true faith
Worshipping the undivided Trinity
Who has saved us.
And the other is the Orthodox "Jesus manifesto":
Only-begotten Son and immortal Word of God
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary
Who without change didst become man and was crucified
O Christ our God, trampling down death by death
Who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit
Save us.
It might be possible for people to have a dialogue about those things, but preferably not by making them responsible for pogroms against the Jews in Tsarist Russia or the blinding of political opponents by Christian Roman emperors and empresses.
But since I don't qualify as "emerging" or "emergent" (though I am here for dialogue), here's a critique of the "Jesus manifesto" from an Emerging point of view.
Comments
Well said, Steve.
Well said, Steve.
Ideas vs Behaviour
Hi Steve,
Thanks for continuing this conversation. I value your words always.
Generally I can agree with what you are saying, however, what worries me is the lack of a response from Christian Fundamentalists criticising or even simply questioning the behaviour of a Fundamentalist blog like “Discerning the World”. There seems to be a deafening silence from those who are conservative evangelicals that have some true discernment regarding behaviour and respect for others. My question now becomes: “Are there any out there?”
I personally don’t feel that it is my job (or ours) to defend the character of fundamentalism.
The big problem with fundamentalism is “the idea” as you put it, or to use another word “the belief” has priory over “behaviour”, therefore as long as a person believes his or her idea is right (or is The Truth) there is justification in waging a crusade or an inquisition. (Note: I use these words poetically)
I ask the question again: (As I did in an earlier comment on your earlier post) What is more important, the fundamentals or imitating Christ? Or to put it another way: Ideas or Behaviour?
Be blessed
Andrew
Ideas and behaviour
The big problem with fundamentalism is “the idea” as you put it, or to use another word “the belief” has priory over “behaviour”, therefore as long as a person believes his or her idea is right (or is The Truth) there is justification in waging a crusade or an inquisition. (Note: I use these words poetically)
I disagree.
The problem is not with Fundamentalism, but (possibly) with some of the people who believe in it.
I'm not concerned to defend the "character" of Fundamentalism, because I disagree with some of the fundamentals.
But what I disagree most strongly with is this:
as long as a person believes his or her idea is right (or is The Truth) there is justification in waging a crusade or an inquisition.
I think that is simply not true, which is why I said that an idea is not necessarily responsible for the behaviour of the people that believe in it.
I am a pacifist; I believe that war is wrong. I believe that my belief that war is wrong is right. So how can my belief that war is wrong "justify" crusades? According to what you said there, believing that it is right to believe that war is wrong DOES justify crusades.
Tom Lehrer, in the introduction to his song "National Brotherhood Week" said "I know that there are people who do not love their fellow man and I HATE people like that."
What makes that funny is that the idea is not responsible for the behaviour of the people who believe in it.
It can also work in reverse: someone can believe, for example, with the Nazis, that it's right and proper to exterminate members "inferior" races, but when push comes to shove and they are called upon to actually kill someone, they might get squeamish, and allow pity to change their behaviour.
Though I disagree with some of the Fundamentals, I see nothing in them that can be used to "justify" the kind of behaviour that we have seen by the authors of the "Discerning the world" blog, and therefore I think it is unfair to blame "Fundamentalism" for that behaviour.
G.K. Chesterton said, "As much as I ever did, more than I ever did, I believe in Liberalism; but there was a rosy time of innocence when I believed in Liberals".
Or, as the Psalmist puts it, "Put not your trust in princes, nor in any child of man, for there is no help in them."
Actions speak louder than words
Steve,
Firstly,
I'm also a pacifist. However, I compromised my belief and spent two years doing national service in the mid-80's. So was I a pacifist while I was in the army? Yes, because of my belief, and no, because of my actions.
Now which one counts... belief or actions?
St Paul answers that question clearly in 1 Corinthians 13 vs 2
"If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing." NLT
So our actions are what count, and we agree!!
I personally encourage “Imitatio Dei”. As Marcus Borg says: “The ethical imperative is to live in accord with God’s character.”
Secondly, (however)
History has shown that “belief” has been the reason for inflicting much suffering on others.
Our own country’s recent history is a great example. Adrien Vlok believed that he was a “good” Christian when he was part of the chain of command in having the SA Council of Churches headquarters bombed in the 1980’s.
When I was in the army, every morning and every night all troops had to spend 15 minutes praying and reading the bible (stiltetyd). We were fighting a “crusade” against all sorts of evil.
As white South Africans, we should, more than most, understand the danger to doctrine (ideas) and indoctrination (the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or professional methodology - Wiki) and the resulting behaviour. Also, we should know the dangers in not speaking out against it. That is why I cannot accept the fact that my brothers and sisters who claim to be fundamentalist are not behaving in a loving and Christ-like way and speaking out against the Discernment sites.
Lastly,
Please note that I said that I was using the words “crusade” and “inquisition” poetically. “Crusade” is used this way all the time. (I.e. Campus Crusade for Christ) and “Inquisition” has only humorous connotations for me thanks to Monty Python.
Thanks again for stretching my thoughts and attitudes.
Be blessed
Andrew
Which is better -- the breast stroke or polarised light
I think we are talking at cross purposes, and getting into a futile argument about whether the brerast stroke is better than polarised light.
I am not saying that words are better than actions, so I don't understand why you are arguing as if I were.
There is no agrument!
I thought I was agreeing with your comment and simply unpacking it further, sorry for the misunderstanding!!
Blessings
Ideas and actions
I was trying to explore the relationship between ideas and actions, not argue that one is better than the other. Also, I'm not sure that it is useful to argue in a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" fashion. Sometimes ideas can be formulated to justify actions later, but usually there are endless iterations of action-reflection so that you can't really say which came first.
In the Orthodox Church we talk about Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy, and you can't really have one without the other. So a person can perform an action, for example, make the sign of the cross. In the 1990 Soccer World Cup many countries in Eastern Europe were still communist, or were just emerging from communism, where Christianity was frowned upon, and some players from those countries made the sign of the cross when they scrored a goal. And back then it was quite significant when people from those countries did such things, because there was considerable pressure from society for them not to do so. Yet the mere performance of the external action does not necessarily mean that it is accompanied by the inward spiritual disposition that the action signifies.
A couple of years later Yugoslavia was being torn apart by civil war, and some people were making the sign of the cross as identification with a faction in that war, not only that they made it, but the WAY they made it. And they went on to kill each other. Some held up one finger to signify that Allah is one, others held up three fingers to signify the Trinity, and they they charged at and shot each other. They performed the action but had not understood the words, so their actions were contradictory.
You can go to all sorts of places and see people who profess to be Christians lying, stealing, killing people and abusing drugs. Does that mean that Christianity consists in doing those things?
fruit
Andy
Good observation, and your question is to me absolutely fundamental: Is belief more important than behavior? The emphatic answer must be "By their fruits shall you know them."
Discerning very little
I have given up commenting over at Discerning the World. I can only take so much of being deleted time and time again for nothing but honest questions.
DTW has made the accusation again and again that the emerging church teaches that all gods are the same, all roads lead to heaven and that you can believe anything you like. Five different times I have asked DTW to name just one emergent leader or teacher how has ever taught any of that. Every single time that comment is deleted and I am told I am not following the "rules." (the irony here is the last few comments by someone else points out how law-focused that site is and DTW insists they are not bound to the law but only to grace. Ha!). It is obvious that no such proof exists. No surprise there.
Anyways, the last post of misinformation and slander is about Rob Bell and his recent teaching event for pastors and church leaders. I was skimming over it and came across this gem that made me literally laugh out loud:
[DTW note: This is Pantheism / Panentheism]
This comment was made in reference to Rob Bell saying that everything belongs to God. My comment to her, which of course was deleted, is as follows:
You say this in response to Bell saying "it's all God's" (which is true, by the way. How can you possibly disagree that everything belongs to God?)
But what is funny is your remark which is emblematic of this entire site - you don't really know what you are talking about and just assign all sorts of nonsense to people you have written off as your enemy.
Pantheism and PanENtheism are two VERY different things. To say that Bell's remark is both of them is to say that it is none of them. So you either don't know what you are saying or you are just so angry you make up stuff to make people look guilty.
Actually, it's not funny. It would be funny if you weren't slandering and mocking men of God. This is nothing but gossip. What does your Bible say about gossipers?
(end comment)
Stanley Hauerwas has used this descriptive phrase of many Christians in the church today: Functional Atheists. I think that term applies to the people at that site. For what use is God to any of them? They have their fundamentals, their formulas, their black and white way of seeing the world and each other. They have drawn the lines in the sand and refused fellowship with anyone they deem (by their limited understanding) the enemy. Who needs God in this scenario? God is found in their head. And as such they live as those who confess Christ yet Christ is no where to be found.
Emergent Christians do indeed profess a different gospel than our critics. We can thank God for it.
Discerning the discerners
Chad,
It is indeed a waste of time trying to discuss anything with those running the "Discerning the World" site. It would also be a mistake to think that they represent anyone and anything other than themselves. Their delusions (about Maitreya, one world religion and all the rest) are so bizarre that they can only come from disturbed minds. Arguing with such minds gets nowhere. We can only pray for them, and pray that they have someone close enough to them to minister to them. But they'd probably treat anyone who tried to minister to them as an emissary from yet another imagined conspiracy.
discussions
whilst accusing DTW, you in turn do exactly that! (not that DTW needs defending). rather concentrate on your own blog, meanings, teachings, and so on and build yourself up in your faith. tomorrow might not dawn always on this earth, and will our last words/comments be criticism and gossiping? c
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